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Information for an 034Motorsport Stage IIB installation (10vt):
Here is a link to the cost break down, and I'm sure I am missing things... Cost Break Down - I FINALLY updated this list, there are a few price estimates and some stuff I am still including from when I was going to use CIS instead of EFI.
Yup...I'm going to run a programmable fuel and ignition system on the CQ, and not just any system, the best bang for buck system out there, 034EFI Stage IIB. You can read about the system here. The "support" website for the 034Motorsport products is MotorGeek, small, with only an even smaller portion of the member list active.
I'm postponing the project until I have enough money saved up in order to do this however. This actually eliminates MANY of the head-aches of installing a 10v turbo into the B3-20v engine bay. It eliminates the need for modifying a factory airbox, or fabricating something to fit a CIS lid onto, as there is no need for any sort of mass-air-flow sensing by either a mechanical air metering plate (aka CIS) or electrical component (the more commonly thought of MAF, such as a hot-wire/heated element or other such means of measuring the inlet air's mass flow). Also, the pipe that connects the CIS air metering plate to the turbo inlet is not needed, so the functional but admittedly quite ugly piece I fabricated was, essentially, a "waste of time" on my part. Oh well, it was an interesting learning experience.
Anyway, things I'm looking to get in order to fit EFI to the 10vt, majority being sourced from Javad @ 034EFI:
034MS Stage IIB ECU w/flying lead harness
Fuel rail for the oddly spaced 10v head
New IAT sensor
New coolant temp sensor
New 4-wire O2 sensor
32-35lb/hr injectors
Distributor from a 4kq (or 5k/5kq or 10v 80/90)
Digifant injector "cups" - VAG calls them injector holders IIRC
LM-1 Wideband setup
Saab APC "Knock box"
Those items should allow for an approximate power range of 250-300hp, which 300hp is going to be the upper limit based on the factory 7A fuel pressure regulator and injector size. Doing this because I am not entirely sure if the intercooler and turbo will be up to any more than that. I'll actually be able to have different map sets, with decreased boost levels for lower octane fuel in one set, and more boost and more aggressive timing & fuel tables for higher octane fuels. I'll also be able to incorporate a launch-control feature, not unlike a two-step rev-limiter in function, to help build boost at the start line of autocross courses. The St.IIB computer also allows for idle (stabilization) control, which is a plus.
There are some things which need to be done in order to run EFI on the 10vt
however. The stock 10vt throttle body has an interference with the EFI
fuel rail, so it needs to be reconfigured. Basically, everything needs to
be flip-flopped. Or, you can run a 5kt automatic throttle, which is
slightly different than the manual transmission version. Either way, you need to
add a throttle position sensor to the throttle body, or run a JT or NF manifold
with a 7A or AAH/AFC throttle, both of which have a TPS on them and both should
bolt up to the older manifolds. Nate Stewart
figured the fuel rail solution out, so thanks to him. The fuel rail also needs to
be mounted, but that shouldn't be a big deal at all. The new IAT will also need
mounted up, that will have to wait until I actually get it in hand, and move the
car down to Dublin (I moved & got married recently btw). The coolant temp
sensor is metric, so it should use a factory "bung".
Information et cetera for a CIS installation:
You can get a reprogrammed chip and modify your wastegate and either strap your intercooler or replace it for 200-230hp. Torque is increased noticeably as well. Not too shabby for an old mechanically injected 2v engine. Anyway, here's the plan so far... Purchased a 1982-1986 Turbo Quattro Coupe downpipe. Using the Coupe's clutch and flywheel assembly, and adding/reconfiguring trigger pins on the flywheel for the Bosch CIS engine management. I am using an ABY-engine spec S2 intercooler with custom piping. Larger surface area, same internal volume (approximately) so it will not increase lag but should decrease intake temps. I am also adding a new bypass valve from the newest 1.8t engines, as well as deleting the quasi-BPV at the air box. I will likely be purchasing several books on Bosch CIS, as well as spending several hundred dollars on CIS test equipment to mess with the fuel pressure. The old CIS systems have a piston-type FPR that can be shimmed to get higher pressures to the injectors. More pressure = more fuel. More fuel = more air can be burned. More air/fuel burned = more power...
Another thing I am doing while the engine is out is build the head up a bit. I am planning on running 40mm intake valves from an NF engine, up 2mm from the factory valves. Another thing happening to the head is the replacement of the factory steel upper retainers, new items are made from CNC lathe'd titanium. The head is also getting the normal rebuild stuff, new guides and seals, new seats, new EM studs, new followers. I am not planning on getting stiffer valve springs at this point, and am not holding my breath for a custom 268/260 cam to surface. Although I really would like having those installed in the head, as well as gasket matching the inlet and exhaust ports on the head, intake manifold, and exhaust manifold.
The bottom end of the engine is remaining stock, just has new rod bolts, main bearings, rod bearings, wrist pin bushes and piston rings in it. Only change is the oil suction tube manifold and sump, which are both from the 7A engine due to the clearance issue in the radiator area (plus the sump is aluminum). Also installed the AAN code 20vt sump baffle.
More important to the engine swap is the air box assembly. You can't just simply put the 5kt's unit in place of the B-series cars unit. Won't fit. I've looked at both cars, as well as the '82-87 turbo quattro coupe and came up with a couple (potential) solutions. One is to get the expensive complete TQC setup. $727 shipped to your door from Germany, but is a direct fit. Option two is to ditch the box, and in effect ditch the CIS fuel system. You'd have to go with a stand alone fuel computer, such as Javad Shadzi's excellent 034EFI setup. Very nice stuff, but cost of the computer alone is $1150, add in the various bits and you end up spending probably around $1400. But you would have no fueling limits as with the CIS system. I also looked at the 10v CIS air box in the 80/90 (and bought one). Looks like this will work as well, with the intake elbow and air/fuel meters from the donor car. At under $30 investment and some time cleaning the air box lid, this is the absolutely cheapest route.
Found out that no matter how much you try and force the Type44 air boot and "knee" pipe in the B3 engine bay with a B3 CIS airbox, it won't fit. I've taken the Jamex air filter I had installed with the 7A and hacked it up a bit, to lower it in the car over an inch as well as move it forward a fair amount, and rotate it counter clockwise as well. Along with the modified Jamex frame, I am now using a VW Rabbit/Golf CIS air boot. This eliminates the fittings for the deceleration cut-off valve, but it will be relocated across the turbo or completely removed and a conventional bypass valve installed from the newer 1.8t engines. This is the more likely course of action.
I'm leaving all the old ramblings on here, in case others want to know other ways to skin this cat. I decided in the interest of money savings to totally delete the AC system. I know this flies in the face of what I had said recently on list (20v.org list) about how I was going to possibly get the AC system fit to the 10vt engined CQ. But, oh well, things change.
[old stuff]
In short, it looks like I'm going to use an S2/5ktq drier in conjunction with the CQ's compressor (using the 5ktq donor cars brackets and manifold to mount it to the driver side of the block), along with the 5ktq's AC lines. I will also have to use the 5ktq's 90A alternator, which is a step down from the CQ's. I do not know if I could use a 5kq's alternator, as it is a 110A like the CQ. This will allow me to use the 5ktq's EM, and will only have to modify the 5ktq's downpipe to mate with the CQ's cat. Just minor fabricating is needed now, instead of major work...
------------------------
Well, thought of another problem area as I was cleaning the engine bay of the donor car; the air conditioning system... The CQ has the compressor mounted on the passenger side of the engine bay, with the alternator on the drivers side. The 5ktq has it switched for what looks like clearance reasons between the compressor and turbo. The S2, with its 20v head and slightly different turbo location, ran the "same" setup as the CQ, so I know it works that way. Getting it to work with the 10vt may be difficult, or costly, or both. I can use the 5k's layout, and make (buy?) new AC lines, reroute power and control wires, et cetera. I may be able to mount the compressor like the CQ, with a custom bracket, but I don't know yet. Another option is to just ditch the AC and run the alternator like how the CQ and S2. By the way, the S2 used heat barrier mats on the compressor housing, and a couple other areas.
-----------------------
Well, while working on the now removed MC code engine I found some things wrong with it. Namely several cracks in the exhaust manifold, as well as a broken down-pipe. So, Insteadof welding those up to fix them, I think I'll nip those problem areas (known for fluid restriction), as well as (hopefully) solving the AC issue. How am I going to do this you ask? "Simple!" Make a header and 3" downpipe that goes into a 3" cat with a flex sectionin it.
[/old stuff]
Donor Engine Removal Slide Show
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